Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Buddy of mine just asked what to recommend for his one, black (evil) rifle.
He has some ability and knowledge of firearms. Owns shotguns and a 30-30.

Taking into account cost, caliber, availability of mags & ammo, etc.
What would you suggest?
I am leaning towords AK in 7.62X39.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Two answers to this question:

1) If he has a budget, go with the AK (still can get polytechs for about $700).

2) If not, I would grab both an AK and FAL (STG58 or SA58).

Is he looking for that one weapon he will carry in a SHTF situation or is this for plinking?

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

general use, but SHTF in the back of his mind

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

It all depends on his financial situation.

Myself, since I cant afford an AR or an M14 I would go with a AK or even possibly a Ruger Mini 14

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Ok, if SHTF is on the back of his mind, I would probably go with 7.62x39 since it is about middle ground in both cost and effectiveness. If he can afford it, he should try and get the most accurate AK as possible which would probably be a polytech or other 386 factory made AK. Your looking for the ribbed, thicker barrels. This allows for more accurate and consistent groups when maintaining a constant rate of fire like in an engagement. The thinner barrels will start peppering targets after 20-30 rounds.

Now, others might suggest 5.45x39 since it is cheap but I just don't think it is a round I would want to engage an enemy with.

Naturally, if he could afford it a nice 3.08 weapon (FAL in my opinion) would be nice as well.

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Taking into account what his criteria is, an AK/AR is hard to beat. Myself, M1A is hands down a great SHTF battle rifle. You will pay for one though as cost of the rifle is only part of it. Decent GI mags and ammo will put a major dent in ones wallet.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

I have been back and forth on the M1A and FAL but finally decided to go with the FAL. Same price range but mags are a little cheaper on the FAL and it seems parts are a little more available. The M1A is one excellent weapon though.

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Well, here's my two cents (for the umpteenth time):

Saiga in any caliber: 223, 7.62x39, 308...(all good shooters)

For the price ~$300 (223, 7.62) or ~$400 (308) you could own one of each and have the "basic" three calibers covered.

Here's a target for the 21 inch barrel 308/scope and Aussie military ball @100 yards...

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Good info Silver. I actually own a Saiga 7.62x39 and like it quite a bit. How do you like you 3.08 which I see pictured above?

Have you tried groupings out past 100 yards and if so what have your results been?

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

FAL is a great weapon as well. You are well served with either. I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around .308 ammo costs. It's really getting expensive. Most everything guns and ammo related are I guess anymore.....

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

I highly recommend the Saigas in any caliber, but the .308 shoots exceptionally well for a Kalashnikov, IMO. They are still "affordable".

I do love the FAL and would recommend one of the DSA variety if one can afford it.

The shorty picture earlier shown (since deleted) was not mine...sorry.

My 21 inch .308 with 3-9x scope will shoot that size group at 100 yards...I have not yet tried it at distance beyond that.

My "shorties" are open-sighted and will break clays consistently at 100 yards...which is about as far as I can see these days without some sort of glass.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

SOCCOM 2

308

M14 mags

JMHO

TS

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Victor,

Ammo is killing me too. The problem is I invested in 7.62x39 weapons when I was paying 6.5 cents a round; though recently I started buying 7.62x51. Unfortunately as you pointed everything has pretty much gone up three times in the past 4 years which means I am paying at least 40 to 50 cents for 308 and nearly 20 cents for 7.62x39.

I feel like I would be at a severe disadvantage without at least a 308 or larger caliber weapon to use for long range engagement. I do have 7.62x54r mosin nagant, however, I would like a semi-automatic.

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Yep, the DSA manufactured FALs are nice. The STG58 is probably the cheapest one you can buy fairly new ($1050-$1200) or cheaper if you go used. I know someone recently that picked up a SA58 for only $400! I about died when he told me that!

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

By the way, as far as a quality .308 rifle goes, if you can shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards you can often shoot at least that or less at 200 yards, if the shooter does his part.

It seems the boattail bullet will begin to stabilize or "go to sleep" at about 150-175 yards or so and often results in finer accuracy (tighter groups) at distances beyond...

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

AK all the way. Try to get a Russian one, RAA SAIGA 7.62 is a great choice, and is even legal in CA, regardless of what they try to tell you. Arsenal AKs seem to be great quality as well. I have heard, however that Friends don't let friends buy WASRs :D

AK ammo is still less than $200/1000rds.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Ar-15 platform for SHTF as ammo,parts and magazines are much more readily available.

Also something to keep in mind is the AK is a 'bad' firearm, bad guys carry them.

If you are armed with an AR,and have some type of 'government' type of clothing it might make a difference in bad times....

All this being said I prefer the FAL platform as it just suits me better,although trying a vest loadout of ten mags you quickly realise why the .308 round was abandoned in favor of the .223.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

get an ar, they're abundant as all get out. parts and ammo resupply is what its all about.

m1a if you need a 308. same merits as ar.

ak third runner up.

FALs are great but parts and expertise are in short supply here.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Hahaha, I knew this would turn in to an AR vs. AK thread :D

We need a can of worms icon!

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

AK's are great all round firearms,easy to use and maintain,pretty much foolproof and shoot good enough to do the job.

Problem is that in a SHTF situation you don't want a rifle that uses a foreign round,and the 7.62x39 is not made here in large enough quantities to easily find.

Relying upon your own stockpile to get you through who knows what doesn't seem preudent.

Every police force in the USA most likely has .223 as does the military.

I had AKs as my weapons on choice for a while,had one in .223,5.45x39 and 7.62x39...sold them all,bought an AR and have the FALs and shotguns to back it up.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

I'd go with a FAL. It's pretty easy to underkill, but it's impossible to Overkill.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

The AK boyz can't get it through their noodles that rifles are NOT instruments of precision. (Maybe they all believe Oswald killed JFK with that worn-out POS Carcano?)

You gotta believe in fables if you embrace that underpowered, inaccurate and rainbow trajectoried 7.62x39mm. Oh yeah; ammo is cheap and they will come out of a Hot Springs mud sauna and go POW! Whoopdido!!! Someday you may need to reload some of your empty cases. Are you paying the full-price (no savings here), for Boxer-primed ammunition? Not likely. All the merit of these peasant-poppers goes out the window if you have to pay $18/20 for your ammo. May as well buy Fed American Eagle in .308 and really have something to work with.

Cheap guns are always touted here. Saigas, SKS, AKs, Mosin-Nagant.
Well, go with what makes sense to you.
Can of worms icon. Oops, that is what relying on a weapon that is Boxer primed should have on its buttstock.

The last thing I want is a rifle that is low-powered, inaccurate, and offers little potential from handloading.

Sierra does have a new 135gr MatchKing bullet. Would seem to be an excellent choice. But, oh wait just a minute; don't most 7.62x39s chamber a .310 diameter bullet? Can't shoot that .308 matchking in your oversize barrels.

If you go to the trouble of building that custom .308 bore diameter AK/SKS; why? A .30-30Win has more power and bullet versatility. That 135gr SMK will really perform in a .30-30 or .300 Savage. But they are not ctgs the Rambo-preppers favor, are they?

AK owners are thrilled with 4" groups at 100yds. Well, give them a break. These guys think just triggering rounds off gets the job done.

Hopefully you have enough brains to live somewhere that you are not going to have to suit up for Doom/Mortal Kombat for real. If so, you will need a Real Rifle. Something powerful, accurate and versatile. That is most anything other than a mil-surp or importer special in 7.6 2x39.

Ciao!

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Please enlighten me to what that rifle might be besides pos ak.

And remember the last thing I want is " a rifle that is low-powered, inaccurate, and offers little potential from handloading."

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

I been saying that sense i got here.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

If you have the money get an Armalite AR-10. Very well built, accurate and .308.The one I have seen and shot is fantastic in every way.
Attachment 42840

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

It doesn't matter what gun moneymatters has, he will get the drop on the bad guy every time and do a one-shot-one-kill.

Here he is explaining his technique:

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

With my polytech I can achieve sub one inch groupings at 200 yards; somehow I think that is plenty battle effective.

By the way, why would you compare 7.62x39 to 7.62x51 in the first place? We are talking about two completely different classes of weapons and battle field applications.

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Wow that dude knows he's shit! VERY tactycool IMHO:listen:

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

So the Buff-one is making this personal

Several months ago I posted a thread entitled: "Why th 7.62x39mm is not a survivalist's cartridge". Gosh-howdy! Did the chicom apologists scurry out from their urban command centers from Boulder to NY on that one. We even heard about how well suited the AK/7.62x39 is for Elk!

There are guys who love their .22LR Ruger 10/22's also. Just becuase you could (eventually) kill a deer or elk with one, it doesn't make it a suitable piece for elk hunting.

One of the GIM resident Rambolina's on another thread stated his rifle, ammo load and bullet proof vest comprised 40lbs of his "bug-out" load, so he was not able to carry much else. Just planning to rob/loot/rape every inch of the way on his journey to survive; I guess.

The AK crewe of merrymen don't seem to understand their guns are not rifles; they are carbines. Underpowered to begin with, they don't gain velocity after they exit the barrel; yet some may never have understood this. A 24" barrel that makes 2300fps when firing a 123 grain bullet, has occasion to reach much lesser velocity threshold when launched from a shorter barrel. But, the Rambolinas believe they have something else

Life and ballistics are interesting. The .30-30Winchester is a superior cartridge to the 7.62x39, especially when fired from a non-tubular magazine weapon, thus enabling spitzer bullets. The .30Remington case, which is a .30-30 rimless is now the basis for the 6.8SPC which The US Army has adopted. These .270 caliber rifles are adapted to the AR-15 rifle system.

Funny how the one tyro up above says somthing about "gas in the chamber" implying some knowledge of the semi-auto functioning of weaponry. No rifle, other than a blowback .22 or low pressure round (like a shotgun) uses "gas in the chamber" for operation. That is why rifles have a gas port in the barrel, sir. The pressure that propels the bullet out the barrel is bled off into a gas tube to drive a piston or impact against a gas key on top of the bolt-carrier. 54000psi "gas" would certainly etch a chamber in a few hundred rounds, maybe less. Of course, that is why the cartridge case is brass (on a decent weapon), so the pressure can insulate the chamber from these negative effects.

Yes, Virginia; that is a dig against the steel case ammunition so wide spread among AK users. The ammunition is typically junk. There is another thread concurrently running that discusses the 7.62x39 ammo being sold at "bargain" prices has many age issues and maybe is culled for quality control factors as well. You get what you pay for.

Go FN FAL if you want. Armalite is selling AR-10 mags for $30ea these days. Brownells sells mil-spec AR-15 mags for $12 ea. How much more affordable do you want?

If you only had one weapon, and that weapon needed to fulfill many roles; a .308Winchester would be a most versatile choice. If you want one of those long-ass Garands, they are pretty nice rifles, who could blame you. Yet, having something you don't have to rig with some jake-leg scope mount makes a lot of sense. I went with an AR-10 over my Springfield M1a for that very reason. Sure you can make a Garand type rifle shoot, but you can't keep the stock bedded for more than about 1500rds. But you only notice that if you know how to shoot. A Rambolina would be so amazed he even hit the target frame at 200yds, a shot-out or ruined-bed M1a that still held 1.5moa would be heaven. However, to one who knows about accuracy it is not desirable.

The AR platform is the finest going, in terms of accurate self-loading rifles. Even snipers in Iraq have seen more benefit from Knights SR25 rifles over traditional bolt rifles. More versatile. Powerful ammunition, accurate... Guess nobody ever told these guys they need to compromise just in case they take a mudbath?

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

money matters,

Again I believe we are talking apples and oranges here.

If I had to choose between a 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 weapon, well obviously I would choose 7.62x51.

7.62x39 (when shot through a good weapon) is a great round. I have done tons of ballistics tests using both 5.56 and 7.62x39 and I can tell you when dealing with any sort of hardened targets the extra grain wait in the x39 makes a huge difference in penetration and effectiveness.

At 200 yard accuracy test when shooting through a match barrel AK you will achieve practically the same level of accuracy as an AR (obviously the AR has an advantage beyond 250 yards). Would I snipe with an AK? Probably not but in an engagement with mixed target densities under 200 yards it will be my choice.

Again, I FULLY agree that x51 is superior to the x39 round hands down, not even a question in my mind; ballistics, trajectory, range, and accuracy even when shooting surplus ammo.

You know honestly it will probably be easier to agree to disagree rather than hash this out.

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

First choice would be the AR, maybe an M4 because of the wide availability of Mags and ammo. Next would be the M1a. Very heavy hitting and VERY accurate but the ammo will cost you a little more. Plus you can legally hunt big game with it in most states.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Just noticed this was post 3.08 for ya :D

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

But I WANT a carbine if I am only buying one rifle.

No bullets GAIN velocity after exiting the barrel. Unless they are rocket propelled. Simple physics here. And yes, the AK is underpowered compared to a .50BMG and a howitzer, but what's the point?

The ammo being sold has no "age issues" that I've EVER heard anyone else speak of. It's cheap, and in an AK or SKS it goes bang EVERY SINGLE TIME. Can't say that for any AR platform. Stop making up quality issues that are nonexistent.

So it costs as much to fill the magazine than to buy it. Doesn't sound so economical to me.

The moral of this story is, if you are a tacticool ninja, then you wouldn't be caught dead with something other than an AR.

For the rest of us, AKs will work just fine for our purposes. I don't know too many that plan on sniping zombies from 200+yards. Or 100+ yards, for that matter.

.308 is great, and nobody can argue that 7.62x39 is more powerful. But for the cost of a .308 and ammo, you can get three AKs and twice the ammo, while having good penetration and decent performance out to REASONABLE distances. That combined with lighter weight and rugged reliability make for a perfect SHTF style weapon.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Hey, I didn't notice. Oh the irony!

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

You can build a quality AR for under $600. Superior Arms lower: http://www.superiorarms.com/. J&T Distributing CAR-16 carbine kit: http://jtdistributing.net/store/more_k_c16k.html. Add a magazine for $15 and you are at $595.00.

However, the Saigas are a lot cheaper and they work (even though they aren't pretty or ergonomic).

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

It made me laugh. Which is about all you can do on threads like this. :D

Look for the humor right?

Anyways, your caliber is changing with every post :D

Dave

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

hot damn that is hilarious. thanks! :D he aint gonna argue with you. or himself. or whatever.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

y'all talkin bout "gas in the chamber..."

is that like a "fart in the skillet?'

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

But can you carry all 3 AKs at once? Will you be shooting twice that ammo because you miss every other shot? Also, although ammo may be half the price it doesn't take half the space or weigh half as much.

I'll stick with .308, thank you.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

The FAL is a great weapon, I have an Israeli version.I also have an HK91 and I've had both since 1986 and both are great weapons.The only bitch I have with the FAL is having to adjust the discharge at the end of the gas chamber to control shell ejection as it gets hot and dirty, buy hey its an old platform.
If I was to go out and buy another .308 right now it would be hands down the Armailte AR-10, then I would put in a Jard 2.75lb trigger.
:smokin:

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

bwelkk,
Nah, he'll have TWO OTHER PEOPLE flanking you while he's keeping your head down.

And you won't know what hits you until it's too late. So much for the superiority of the .308!

And I have a .308 Rem 700 BDL heavy barrel rifle myself. But it will ONLY be brought out when the fight is PAST 300 yards (900 ft). And I can't run from the fight. That distance is slightly less than a quarter mile.

Besides, EVERYONE ASSUMES you should only have ONE MBR. If that's your mantra, you are limiting yourself to one tool.

That's like using a hammer to beat a screw into a piece of wood. Yeah, it WILL work, but so will the proper sized screwdriver.

Do you ONLY have one tool in your tool box? I don't. Matter of fact I three tool boxes FULL of tools. Lots of duplicates, but even more specific use tools.

The same holds true for firearms. Would you use a pistol for a 500 yard shot? You CAN do it with some practice. But why? Why not use that .308 you are so fond of? That's using the CORRECT tool for the job.

If all you've got is your .308, you will run out of ammo THREE TIMES QUICKER, given the same situation as Buff01. And that's BAD. While his 'puny' thirty caliber bullets are still fresh in the case, you will be out of ammo.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Thanks wallew, that's exactly what I meant.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

New to the forum, been lurking for a while and have a bunch of respect for you guys and am thankful for the info I have picked up from here.

Have been stocking up a bunch on the PM Silver front and I am looking to get my first couple guns here shortly. Going to start off with 1 handgun which I am leaning towards a glock and 1 rifle. I am looking at getting an SKS probably to startout, is this a dumb idea? Also how crazy or dumb is it to buy guns at say a local gunshow? I am in Ohio and have been looking at getting the Glock at a store called Gander Mountain which has a really nice selection of handguns and rifles. Is purchasing from a store like this dumb? Am I likely to pay way more for a handgun at a store like this instead of at a gunshow or gun shop? Sorry for the newbie questions but I am trying to get it together before TSHTF.

:D

Re: Just one, AK, AR, M14 or ?
 

Welcome...

Gander Mtn is a good retail outlet. But their prices reflect that.

Before spending money there, go to the local gunshow. You might find a better deal there.

An SKS is NOT a bad choice. Reliable as the day is long. Somewhere between $200 and $300 should get you a nice SKS.

Centerfire Systems has them from $170 up to $240. You DON'T LIVE in California, right? Click on the link and then look at the bottom of the page.

Classic Arms is also selling them from $190 to about $200. Follow this link and go down about 3/4 of the page and you should see them.

I've done business with both and they are good companies. NEVER had any problems with either. If you use Centerfire Systems, ask for Donna.

Also, add AT LEAST twenty stripper clips . Centerfire systems has them for $8 for twenty. Then all you need is ammo. You'd be good to go.

Glock pistols ARE GREAT. Especially for your first handgun. There are numerous places. Gander Mtn CAN have some good pricing if you catch a sale, otherwise they will be selling them at full retail. That's starts around $400 and goes up from there.

As I said above, you MIGHT actually be able to swing a better price deal if you can purchase both from the same seller at a local gun show. OH, AND CASH TALKS.

You will definitely be run through a background check when you purchase your firearms.

If you've got more questions, let us know. Good luck.

Re: Just one, AK, AR, M14 or ?
 

wallew, yu da man !

I wouldn't choose any on that list either.

SKS for bargain basement firearm or a Ruger Mini 30 for a high end rig.

Re: Just one, AK, AR, M14 or ?
 

I think the SKS is an excellent choice for a first rifle. They are easy to take apart, cheap, reliable, common, and well, fun to shoot!

I have heard nothing but bad about Minis though. Unreliability, finicky about ammo, not much choice for upgrades, etc. They're expensive for what they are as well.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Unfortunately, the Ruger Mini 30 has had problems. Mainly it revolves around the bolt and proper extraction if memory serves.

Plus I think they stretched the design itself by bumping it up to the Mini 30. But I could be wrong.

Besides, an SKS will definitely be cheaper than a Mini 30. And NO magazines to lose.

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

You dont need a polytech,waste,no AK is tht accurate and if thats what you want, avoid them altogether a simple AK can be had for under $400 and will give you reliable service, the FAL or M-14 is much more accurate,but you can buy 4 or 5 AKs for what they cost the AK is a medium range battle rifle if you want long range, look elsewhere. as for the 5.45x39 it is similar to the .223 its your option but in MHO buying a polytech AK is like buying a fully loaded Kia rio

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

eh, you gotta kepp em guessing!:s9:

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

These 'One Gun' threads are rather ridiculous...it's like asking what 1 food, or 1 tool (Wallew:wink:).

However, if I were forced on 1 gun for the poo hits propeller, it would be an M 14 hands down. Quite simply, there is nothing an AK or AR can do that it can't, but it can do several that they can't. Think long range or punching what would be cover to the other rounds.

For all practical purposes, the M14 is as reliable as the AK and as accurate as the AR. It just gains a lot from it's caliber. Of course, you could get an FAL, but you'd give up a little accuracy, and I just don't like the feel of them. Or you could go AR 10, but you'd give up a LOT of reliablility.

But hey, the good news is, we aren't stuck with just one. Buy at LEAST two of each.:bear_w00t: (Two is one, one is none.)

Re: Just one, AK, Ar, M14 or ?
 

Hunting rifles are cheaper, more accurate, flatter range and are better in every way actually.

In today's political climate, semi-auto can be a disaster and a legal liability. Use one in self-defense, and they will crucify you in court, make you look like a loonie Ted Kazinsky paranoid...etc.

For a good doze of reality, read Massad Ayoob's articles on real-life situations involving self-defense... even from the LE perspectives, some of them had their lives totally ruined in court, their spouses left them... a disaster.

I don't own anything whose cost exceeds courtroom fees.. You don't want to end up in a court room, even if you win, you will be financially ruined, and emotionally and mentally ruined too.

Less liability if it gets stolen, and if you need to move to an anti-gun place, you can just easily sell it or give away without much loss.